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https://disqus.com/home/discussion/progressiveamerican/are_christians_just_kidding_about_abortion/#comment-3294032575



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Sam Andrew • 5 days ago

Very sensible suggestions, unfortunately I think that admitting “the reality that they have been and will continue [to have sex outside of marriage] regardless of your moral beliefs". Is a step too far for many conservatives. To admit that other people have different moral codes and not judge them for it can be very uncomfortable for some people, as it acknowledges that maybe there are no universal moral truths…its far easier for some just to keep talking about how morally degenerate these other people are rather than accept the reality that morality differs across time and place. Not to mention the fact it encroaches on underlying patriarchal notions of controlling female bodies...
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Paul Schlitz Jr. • 3 days ago

When I suggested that everyone who was against abortion should adopt (and I have) a classmate of mine said it was the most offensive thing she'd ever heard and I was consigning myriad babies to their death. I'm convinced there is no way to reason with these people

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Speck • 3 days ago

Totally agree. I've suggested to anti-abortion colleagues that if they really think abortion is such a horror, they should be handing out free contraception even as they protest. The fact that easy access to contraception isn't part of their approach suggests they are more interested in controlling others' sexuality than in preventing "murder". Interesting set of priorities there.

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bobnelsonfr • 3 days ago

There's an easy way to evaluate exactly how much a vehement "Save the BABIES!!!" gonzo actually cares about the "babies". Roughly eight times as many zygotes "die" from non-implantation as from abortion. So if "saving the babies" is truly the objective, the gonzos should be clamoring for research into "how to ensure implantation".

Personally, I have naver heard even a murmur...

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Jamie Brown bobnelsonfr • 2 days ago

I was going to say this, but you beat me to it. Yes, at least 50-60% of fertilized ova fail to implant, and of those that do go on to establish a pregnancy, about 1/3 will end in miscarriage, so in the natural course of events, even if there were no intentional abortions, roughly 2/3 to 3/4 of embryos don't make it. Full-term birth is the exception rather than the norm. If it's really about the "babies," this huge epidemic of embryo loss should demand the utmost investment of resources in medical research to save them, but nobody seems concerned about it. http://www.amirrorclear.net...
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bobnelsonfr Jamie Brown • 2 days ago

So we may conclude that "save the babies" is NOT the true purpose of the anti-abortion militants; that there's an ulterior motive. We may speculate...

Whenever I encounter a rabid "save the babies" gonzo, I ask about non-implantation. Often they haven't the foggiest. Once they have the numbers, they fall silent. They have no answer.
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Tom Chapel • 3 days ago

I'm a bit lost on the argument here, perhaps because the post is way longer than it needs to be. Two comments: (1) Anti-abortion Xian types DID do something---they voted for Trump. And that was huge. Did they do it because they were Christians or because they were conservatives? Who knows. I just know he's in office because of the overwhelming support of evangelicals who apparently--visited perhaps by an angel in their dreams--were told this was the most important issue ever. Even if it made electing perhaps the least outwardly religious President ever. (2) I suspect that if I read further down, I would see that "do something" means be pro-life and not just pro-birth. But on first skim, it seemed like "how come more of you aren't blocking or bombing clinics--if this is the same as the holocaust"

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RandyBarge Tom Chapel • 3 days ago

I agree, the article was longer than it needed to be. But I think that your comment proves the point. If evangelicals believe that abortion is the all encompassing moral issue of the day, leaving the fate of thousands of unborn children to the uncertain and often unsavory workings of the political process seems tepid at best.
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Richard Worden Wilson • 2 days ago

I lost interest in what early on felt like your moralizing diatribe when you said "Christians, ever unsure of their own faith, often seek moral absolutes
in many areas as a reassurance that they are on the right track." You speak as though believing there are moral absolutes were an eternal death nell. Well, you at least suggest you know the actual spiritual state of most of those who oppose abortion. You lost me there.

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Nick Bell • 5 hours ago

Point 1) Christians do nothing to combat abortion (repeated 6578 times)
Point 2) One of the most effective ways to reduce abortions is to combat poverty

Just going to totally ignore Christian charities are we? Okay.

This article does hit the mark for many if not most though. I will give you that. Still, the broad generalizations aren't doing to any favors if you actually want people to make it to the second half of the article with any amount of receptivity left.


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Chuck Johnson • 12 hours ago

John, from the standpoint of morality, Christians are obviously just kidding about abortion. The evidence that you have presented makes this clear.

From the standpoint of political leverage and power, they are not kidding at all.
The "Christian" dogma that they spout about abortion has served their political needs very well, and they will continue as long as it is politically effective for them.


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Jesusisdemocrat • 2 days ago

Unfortunately, the ONLY advice that most of the “ABSOLUTE WORST SIN” (Much worse than the death of 22,000 children, under the age of five, who die every day from easily preventable causes) is “SHE needs to keep HER legs closed”!
There have been multiple studies completed that have proven the number of abortions goes down drastically if safe long-term birth control is available and affordable. In fact, a study was done in Colorado that showed the following: When a new type of IUD’s were available at no costs to low-income and low cost to all (almost 100% effective and not dangerous as the previous ones sometimes were…even to teenagers), abortion rates went down 42%!!!
However, the same group in Colorado that was the strongest anti-choice organization was against using public money for the program. The reason: a quote from the organization’s director says it all. She did not want a situation where women could have sex without consequences. She actually said “…without consequences”!!!!!
THERE IT IS!!! The issue is NOT about human life…it is about the same thing it always is…control of women and punishment when any women does that with which “They” do not agree.


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Alberto Rodríguez Barrera • 5 days ago

Abortionist mothers should be punished with a legal lethal injection. Period.


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Kenny Harvey Alberto Rodríguez Barrera • 3 days ago

Repay a very complicated, emotional, traumatic ending of a life with another ending of a life. You cannot call yourself pro-life and advocate for the death of another person. In the early 70's the Southern Baptist Convention (yes, the holy bastion of evangelicalism) wrote into their platform that they were in support of legalized abortion (insert GASP! here). Prior to that, many denominations and Church leaders throughout history dismissed the idea of abortion being murder because the fetus was not "filled" with the soul until it was born. Abortion was practiced in biblical times, however there is no direct Law against it. And before you comment...my wife works with unwed mothers, we have fostered, we have adopted three children, we give to an orphanage every month, we work in a food distribution program, and I teach in a prison so I think I have the position to write this response. If you want to be consistent in your pro-lifeness you would be against the death penalty as well. I will pray for you.
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Don Lowery Kenny Harvey • 3 days ago

The reason abortion came to the forefront was because the ones like Falwell and others couldn't get people to stand up for continued segregation. These "leaders" were all for allowing Bob Jones "university" to continue their racist policies and use tax money to be rewarded to do so. You have Falwell who started his "university" and church "school" as a place where this behavior would continue as well by supposedly being able to discriminate against non-whites. Coming up to the late 70's...you have Criswell at FBC Dallas and the rest of the SBC supporting abortion...but then the fundamentalists took over soon after this...so not wanting to be seen as they racists they were/are...they switch over to a topic which took the spotlight away from their fight for practicing racism.

Too bad that many of these "supporters" don't realize their message is one of continuing racism...but they lost the culture war many years ago and have to have something to feel good about.
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Jamie Brown Don Lowery • 2 days ago

Yes, and it was also a strategy to persuade religious people to vote for the GOP.

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Alberto Rodríguez Barrera Kenny Harvey • a day ago

1) Ha, ha... "Complicated, emotional, traumatic"... You are intending to minimize the evilness of that crime.
2) I am NOT "pro life", but "pro fetal person rights".
3) There are lots of antibortion atheists groups.
4) Your personal life (if you have adopted, if you tech in a prison) is NOT the subject we are discussing.


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Kenny Harvey Alberto Rodríguez Barrera • 14 hours ago

A desperate, scared pregnant woman having an abortion is no greater a sin (and it is not a crime...words matter) than me not tithing when I know I should. Sin is sin and we both deserve an eternity in Hell. However, because of the love of Christ, I do not have to spend forever in Hell. I think...I know Christ loves that woman with a love you or I cannot even fathom and He wants her to come to Him. Your option would deny that and sentence her to an eternity of punishment. Jesus did not condemn the adulteress in Gospel According to John. He offered her mercy instead of the stoning she deserved. Is my, yours, anyone's judgment more righteous than Christ's? If He was willing to have mercy where tha Law was clear, we are obligated to do the same. My personal life matters in that my family and I walk our talk. We are all made in God's image regardless of the sins we commit. Moses and David were murderers, Abraham was a liar, Samson and David were adulterers and yet God did not demand their lives even though His Law required it. All of our personal lives matter in this discussion. I am not against you in advocating for the unborn children...it is the requirement of death that we disagree on. Shalom

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Alberto Rodríguez Barrera Kenny Harvey • 13 hours ago

Your religious points of view are not important for me. I am an atheist.
Then, if a person who kills a born person is jailed, a person who kills an unborn person should be jailed too.

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Kenny Harvey Alberto Rodríguez Barrera • 3 hours ago

I appreciate your sense of justice and your defense of the unborn. I can also appreciate your not caring for a religious point of view. I would ask one more indulgence of your time since we do agree on the basis of this discussion. As people and culture have evolved over the millennia the systems of justice have evolved as well. Part of that evolution, in my opinion, has been the recognition that vengeance and justice are not necessarily co-existent. Justice, restorative justice, requires that the guilty party be given the opportunity and the tools to become better than what they were. Study after study has shown that there is no victim closure in the death of the guilty, however there are beautiful stories of reconciliation between offender and victim. My hope is that you can take your passion for justice and use it for not just the unborn but to better society as a whole. Shalom

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Alberto Rodríguez Barrera Kenny Harvey • 10 minutes ago

Really, I have promoted campaigns AGAINST evil punishment to rapists. Chemical castration is a barbaric punishment that is being applied to men. Even men who have pinched or slapped a female butt are being severly punished. They deserve more indulgence. Feminazis are very cruel against men and very accomplices in the case of evil women.

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Dorfl Alberto Rodríguez Barrera • 4 days ago

A request to the moderator:

Can you not delete this? Can you please let it stay up forever as a monument to the "pro-life" mindset?

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sabelmouse Dorfl • 2 days ago

i think it's better to view than to hide it.
we need to know what goes on in people's heads

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Alberto Rodríguez Barrera Dorfl • 4 days ago

I am NOT pro life. I am pro fetal person rights.


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Jamie Brown Alberto Rodríguez Barrera • 2 days ago

Such as, the right to use another person's body against their will, a right that no born person has? So, "fetal persons" have a "right" which for all other persons would be a crime. Yeah, that totally makes sense.
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Alberto Rodríguez Barrera Jamie Brown • 8 minutes ago

You have not knowledge about PARENTAL DUTIES.

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Bettina Ortiz Alberto Rodríguez Barrera • 3 days ago

What are "pro fetal person rights?" I'm not being facetious, I'm trying to understand your mindset here. I believe in civil discourse, something many people in this country seem to know nothing about, therefore o would like to know what this term means to you. Abortion is a very complex issue and the numerous reasons women choose to have an abortion are just as complex. For the vast majority of women, abortion is an extremely difficult decision. To say "abortionist mothers should receive a lethal injection...period" is completely counter productive! It is also one of the most un-Christian statements I've ever heard! I cannot imagine Jesus making that kind of statement to a woman trying to decide what to do about having an abortion. Seriously, is that something YOU could imagine? Or would He have empathy and sympathy for her; would He try to help her? As a Christian, I cannot believe for even a second He would condone giving her a "lethal injection!" Jesus was and still is, love in action! Wouldn't it be better for everyone if you followed that same road? God bless you.

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Alberto Rodríguez Barrera Bettina Ortiz • a day ago

1) Women choose to kill their fetal son or daugther because of egoism and impunity. Abortion is a CRIMINAL DECISION that SHOULD be difficult. Severe punishment serve to make criminal decisions difficult.
2) There are a lot of atheist antiabortion groups.
3) To have empathy and sympathy for a criminal person means to be criminal oneself. You should have empathy ans sympathy for the murdered baby and for his/her father.

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Bettina Ortiz Alberto Rodríguez Barrera • 11 hours ago

I'm very sorry for you. Your anger is vastly unwarranted. You say that women "kill" their fetuses because of "egoism and impunity." It is, however, utterly impossible for you to have direct knowledge of the reasons women have abortions for one simple reason....you are NOT a women! Over the years I have known many women who have either had an abortion or went through the agony of trying to decide. One was raped. Several had a number of children already and because their brutish husbands didn't want to use birth control, they chose to have abortions. One had genetic testing done because of her advanced age and she was told her fetid would have severe birth defects and would undoubtedly die within the first weeks of life! These women were all heart broken and in agony as they made their decisions. "Egoism and impunity" NEVER entered the picture!

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Alberto Rodríguez Barrera Bettina Ortiz • 2 minutes ago

Bettina: 1) you are NOT a man. Then, you have not direct knowledge of the reasons the men commit rapes. Than, you should not look for any punishment for male rapists.
2) Women SHOULD feel an AGONY trying to decide to commit a crime. They should be SURE they will suffer a severe punishment. The goal of a civilized society is to make DIFFICULT to be taken criminal decisions.
Impunity should not exist in order to promote that a woman who is imaging a crime against her fetal baby feel agony.
3) In Western societies, abortion is essentially a crimen commited by WOMEN, not by men. It is feminazism to blame men.

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Chuck Johnson Bettina Ortiz • 3 days ago

Bettina:
"It is also one of the most un-Christian statements I've ever heard!"

Chuck:
There are as many versions of Christianity as there are Christians.

To some, this is a very Christian attitude.


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Bettina Ortiz Chuck Johnson • 10 hours ago

To be a Christian is both very simple and very difficult. Simple because, while you may call yourself an Evangelical, a Catholic, a Lutheran, etc., the "guidelines" laid out by Jesus Himself are clear; love one another as you love yourself, take care of the sick and the homeless, do not judge others lest you be judged, stand up for what is right. Examples of His teachings fill the New Testament! A clear example of his love for everyone is His stopping the crowd from stoning prostitute Mary Magdalen. She became one of his dearest friends. Remove the anger from your heart and stop condemning others.
I also said Christianity is difficult. Taking the time and or money to help those in need, standing up for what is right according to God's laws, etc. are difficult concepts. It's not easy to stand up against bullies. It's not simple to use what may be limited resources to feed the hungry. But Jesus asks us to do these things because we are ALL God's beloved children...Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, black, white, yellow, gay, straight, young, old... ALL God's beloved children. Period.

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Don Lowery Bettina Ortiz • 3 days ago

Wouldn't even bother trying to figure out what he's talking about. The article and many others cover this lack of reasoning and the lack of forethought it takes to think it through. It's no different than going about singing about wanting to be an Oscar Meyer wiener. They are just catch phrases thrown out there because the person using them have nothing else to throw out there to make themselves "legends in their own minds".


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RossM Alberto Rodríguez Barrera • 3 days ago

Chapter and verse please, in the Bible, not in the writings of Jerry Falwell. I suggest that your murderous, judgemental attitude is not supported by Gospel, neither with respect to abortion itself, nor your demand for lethal punishment.

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Bettina Ortiz RossM • 11 hours ago

Ross, THANK YOU! You are absolutely right. This kind of judgmental attitude is not supported by Gospel nor is it supported by the laws of the United States. Abortion is not a criminal offence in the United States.

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Alberto Rodríguez Barrera RossM • a day ago

There are a lot of atheist antiabortion groups.


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Progressive Republican Alberto Rodríguez Barrera • 2 days ago

You're not a Christian are you.

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Alberto Rodríguez Barrera Progressive Republican • a day ago

There are a lot of atheist antiabortion groups

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Alberto Rodríguez Barrera bobnelsonfr • a day ago

An abortionist mother uses her vagina to let killer instruments to be introduced to murder her son/daughter. Also, she uses her womb as an execution chamber of her offspring. Then, she should be punished because she has used her body to hurt another body.
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Jamie Brown Alberto Rodríguez Barrera • 2 days ago

No, rapists are sent to jail because it is illegal to USE another person's body against their will, an "abusive use of bodies."

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Alberto Rodríguez Barrera Jamie Brown • a day ago

A rapist uses abusively HIS PENIS because he hurts ANOTHER BODY (that of the raped victim). An abortionist woman uses abusively HER VAGINA and HER WOMB because she hurts ANOTHER BODY (that of the aborted victim).
Both, a rapist man and an abortionist woman, are the owner of their bodies, but not the owner of other bodies.
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Jamie Brown Alberto Rodríguez Barrera • 15 hours ago

No, it isn't just because the rapist "hurts" a woman or which part of his body is involved. Rape is illegal because nobody is allowed to use another person's body without their consent. A fetus likewise is not "the owner of other bodies." Also your analogy is completely inaccurate because the vagina/ uterus is not the instrument of harm. Rather, it is the LACK of a uterus which causes a fetus to die. Even if the fetus were removed very gently and not harmed in the process, it cannot survive outside of the womb. But the fact that it needs a womb does not give it the right to stay inside of another person's body without her consent. Homeless people have a right to live and they need a roof over their heads, but that doesn't give them the right to live in your house.
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Alberto Rodríguez Barrera Jamie Brown • 17 minutes ago

There are some abortion techniques in which scissors are used. For example, D&E abortion and D&X abortion. Then, uterus is used as an execution chamber. The physician is the active murderer who stabs and cuts the fetal baby, but the mother of that baby is also a murderer because she permits that scissors be introduced into her vagina and womb, to kill her offspring.

Also, my sons and daughter HAVE the right to live in may house because I have parental duties towards them. And a pregnant woman also has parental duties towards her intrauterine offspring.

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